Ogawa

When I was shown Dr. Kitamori’s research, I got the feeling that he hadn’t made it specifically for chemical plants but was trying to do something needed in the field of microfluidics. It all made sense. There have often been theories about what will happen if large plants are converted to microscale, but as soon as such ideas arise, the microfluidic devices become something more special and fail in most cases. Dr. Kitamori seemed to be thinking and doing things at microscale from the beginning. I mean, he considered performing research with narrow flow paths by necessity to avoid concentration and temperature distribution.
Plus, when I had the chance to glance briefly at his materials, I discovered that this microfluidic device wasn’t regulated by gravity. To prevent concentration distribution from occurring, he created a place where specific gravity doesn’t work. I thought it was great.
I imagine that microfluidic devices were perhaps initially used in the medical field and later came to be used in the manufacturing plant realm. And in fields involving the use of blood and prevention of the breakdown of blood.
In that sense, I thought that his approach was completely different and that he was a genius. That’s why I thought we should definitely do this. I really felt that the idea was different from the beginning.

Kitamori

That’s exactly the point. I’ve met many people, from engineers to managers of various companies, but it was the first time I met a president of a large company like Mr. Ogawa.

Ogawa

It’s not a large company. (Laughter)

Kitamori

It’s a large company. It was the first time. Anyway, once you were able to firmly grasp the essence, you decided to go with it. And you lead all the workers in a top-down way. Honestly, I’ve never met such a manager before.

Ogawa

You’re too kind.

Kitamori

In many companies, it takes a tremendous amount of time to bring ideas back to the company for discussion, research, and marketing. After trying one thing or another, so many companies ultimately decide not to implement ideas. They say something like, “As president, I’d like to do it…or ” “Oh, I see.”
Japanese companies, after all, must achieve results within five years or so. In many cases, the president can’t make decisions about this on their own; however, I was very surprised that Mr. Ogawa made a firm decision right away.
My personal motto is to put my all effort in the place where I am called for. It was to do my best at Daicel if called on by Mr. Ogawa. So, I thought I would work there.

Ogawa

I was in the opposite position. I thought it would be interesting to work with Dr. Kitamori. I didn’t know the details. However, seeing the foundations of what he had done, it was clear that he never did anything wasteful. You can also see that he always does things by necessity. Furthermore, the level is deeper. What I saw was probably only a part of it. Anyway, he has a lot of useful knowledge and experience. I thought we could do interesting things together if we actively supported Dr. Kitamori in what he wanted to do.

Kitamori

Thank you. When I first spoke with people from Daicel, the theme was completely different. While we were discussing things and exchanging information, I provided a brief introduction oriented toward this new direction, and you quickly grasped the subject. It was amazing.

(Continued below)

Ogawa

This project is carried out by outstanding members of our company. Those members also consider safety no matter what. On the other hand, the microfluidic device is a perfect match for dangerous processes. What I mean by dangerous process is mostly direct synthesis. The best thing about the microfluidic device is that it allows direct synthesis to be carried out safely.

Kitamori

Yes. Of course, one approach would be to start from what we are able to do, but we’d rather try what we aren’t able to do now and see if we can manage to do it with this. So, we say “Let’s do it.” It would be meaningless if we didn’t face any challenges. We don’t do things if they can be done by others. We would rather take on challenges if we are the only ones who can do them.

Ogawa

You choose the option with the higher level of production process complexity, which is actually more suitable for a microfluidic device. Around the world, there are also many conventional plants that couldn’t be realized because of safety issues. Because it is a microfluidic device, the volume is small, and in that sense, the risk is greatly diminished as a result. Thanks to this, we can try many new things.

Ogawa

In our present process, dangerous zones, called hot spots, appear in the accumulation and concentration parts during the production process, not only in the case of production of peroxides themselves, but also in the case of compounds other than peroxides. However, a microfluidic device doesn’t have such hot spots, so these risks can be avoided, and we can safely try things.

(Continued below)

Ogawa

Yes. You’re not just an academic. You’re an excellent academic, but I think you’re also a businessperson, though maybe not an entrepreneur. You’re also conscious about business, aren’t you?

Ogawa

In that sense, I think both Dr. Kitamori and I are rationalists, if I may say so. There is no point in doing things that don’t make sense.

Kitamori

Yes. It is important how the technology we develop can contribute to society and industry. Since we’re professional researchers, it is of course our mission to create new things; however, I think in engineering, you should still think of how the things you create can help people in the future.

Ogawa

It might be more difficult to find such people in engineering in particular. They are inevitably more interested in research papers and academia. Social implementation poses another big challenge. If anything, doing something logical and really concrete involves a substantial amount of unsophisticated work. However, Dr. Kitamori is also a businessperson.

Kitamori

Recently, nations and organizations providing financial assistance and funding to universities, research institutions, and other organizations have finally begun to ask researchers first how they will give back to society and socially implement their work. But this started only 10 or 15 years ago. How things are useful in the field and what is academically important are independent of each other, but there must be some overlap. It may seem like I’m bragging, but I’ve been thinking about working on both of these things simultaneously rather than separately since I became a professor.
In Japan, there is a research funding agency called the JST (Japan Science and Technology Agency) that provides funds to researchers. One such researcher wrote their dissertation and earned a doctoral degree, saying that such research is also possible. Normally, you conduct basic research first and then applied research. However, I’ve long thought that I can do both simultaneously.

Ogawa

That’s essentially the most important thing. Laboratory researchers, by nature, try to create better things. That’s great, but for industrialization, the viewpoint of chemical engineers, a production method must always produce the same product, is also required. In other words, everyone thinks about making good things, but if the conditions to make good things are too specific, extensive industrialization will not be possible. During industrialization, it is necessary to make products of certain quality. In that case, it is important not only to obtain champion data in the laboratory but also to have technology that allows production of the same products no matter who handles it. It’s pretty bad if these two things aren’t worked on at the same time.

Kitamori

That’s exactly right.

Ogawa

So, the production in modules of 100 microfluidic devices is a prime example of industrialization. Really, the key is that materials can be fed evenly even if the number of modules is increased. What we have been able to do in the laboratory can be done all at once even if it is industrialized as is. So, I think Dr. Kitamori believes he can realize both laboratory and industrialization at the same time as a set, and that’s great. I think you have that idea instinctively.

Kitamori

I have a worldly ambition. To make a fortune at a single stroke. (Laughter)

Kitamori

Even at the forefront of advanced technology, if something isn’t useful, it won’t be advantageous for many people. But it’s widely believed that university professors should not mention making a fortune at a single stroke, though it is okay for students to talk about money.

Ogawa

Intrinsically, it’s not bad, and it’s the right of people who raise added value to be rewarded for their ideas and labor, so it would be good to be able to receive that with pride.

Kitamori

That’s true. After all, when technology becomes money, it does so because it was useful to people or because people appreciated it and used it. It’s a kind of parameter. It serves as a measure or indicator.

Ogawa

If researchers work hard to develop a product through a trial-and-error process and then can sell one drum of the product, they are extremely happy. The fact that customers buy their products has the same impact as recognition from the world. That’s when the capabilities of researchers grow the most.

Kitamori

I couldn’t agree with you more.

Ogawa

It’s the joy of having your product recognized by society. Dr. Kitamori mentioned making money earlier. I guess you’re going to make a lot of money, so you won’t be stingy. I think what’s important is not how to monopolize this technology but rather how to spread it. That’s why we’d like to work on it with a variety of companies as much as possible.

Kitamori

By all means. I’d like to spread it to the world.

Ogawa

After all, I think the microfluidic device is a device that will bring about the next industrial revolution. I mean, mass production during the industrial revolution led to urbanization, didn’t it? That urbanization was labor-intensive, so a large number of workers were required. As large numbers of workers were required, the number of underage workers also increased. Reflecting on that, the labor standard act was established to prohibit employment of underage workers. In other words, the invention of the steam engine and the industrial revolution led to mass production. This time, I think counterurbanization may occur when microfluidic devices become widespread. In other words, it won’t matter where you make things. Ultimately, it may be possible to suggest the production of chemical fibers or materials at customers’ sites, in addition to carpentry work simply using wood.

Kitamori

That’s the ultimate idea.

Ogawa

Industries will change. It is not only about industrialization, but lifestyles may also be changed.

(Continued below)

Ogawa

I think not only Daicel but also a variety of industries should join us and work together to produce them. I want to create a virtual company because a single supply chain cannot be completed with Daicel and its staff alone. To centrally manage production information among several companies connected by a supply chain, from upstream to downstream, and operate as if we were one company – that is the virtual company concept I’m aiming for.
First, I’d like to work with companies with complete supply chains. That is, if we don’t include companies that form supply chains, a material balance cannot be obtained. This alone is why conventional large-scale production is inefficient. For example, I think if we want to go carbon neutral together, we have to introduce microfluidic devices in the same way. We have to run the virtual company as a cooperative business unit rather than a consortium.
In addition, it will be interesting to work directly with the consumer-electronics industry to include microdevices in the form of chemical plants as kits in home electrical appliances to form a micro supply chain and turn the kits into parts.

Kitamori

First of all, I’m very happy to hear Mr. Ogawa say that we are not alone. To work on this technology, we need pumps and various components such as connectors, and for the control method, such as control using AI, various technologies are really required. So, when great numbers of parts are required to construct one desktop chemical plant (DTP), the question is how to prepare a supply chain. The supply chain itself becomes an industry, and the DTPs that form other DTPs deliver to various companies. The things made in DTPs upstream in the supply chain become the materials for DTPs in the next process of the chain, and new chemical products are made. This extends into the semiconductor industry, cosmetics, medicine, and so on. From upstream to downstream, I think it will be a very big industry. That’s the final form.
If you want to have food in a spacecraft like in the American science fiction drama Lost in Space, it can only be made by synthesizing it. The world of Lost in Space can only be realized when the synthesis plants for food and protein have such a compact form. That’s our technology! There were times when we said things like this.

Ogawa

That’s the idea.

Kitamori

Yes, that’s the final form. If the plant can be used by ordinary people, I think it has reached the end point. I feel that we’re still at the half-way point in terms of the places where the chemical industry can use it. I don’t know how many centuries it will take to achieve this.

Ogawa

I think it’s surprisingly close. If chemical plants become such microdevices in supply chains, I think dissemination of them will quickly spread to other industries. Obviously, the microfluidic device is highly productive and can even perform energy conversion. In that sense, I think it will be known that it holds various possibilities.

Kitamori

For issues confronting the earth and humanity, we need to find solutions immediately, so it may need to be done aggressively.

(Continued below)

Ogawa

I basically want to spread the microfluidic device to all industries. Otherwise, companies will never succeed if they try to improve their efficiency and reduce their costs all on their own. I think we should be prepared to spread the microfluidic device throughout the entire industrialized world. Carbon neutrality can only be achieved as a social structure if we do that.

Kitamori

So to do that, we need to make the project we are carrying out now a success.

Ogawa

Yes. We will make it a success.

Kitamori

People don’t do things unless they think they’re good.

Ogawa

We need them to see overwhelming results with their own eyes. Also, you really need to change their mindsets at that time. For example, I think we will probably need to change our mindsets with respect to valves and pumps. Naturally, in many ways, we need to be models for changing mindsets.

Kitamori

When we proceed with this, things that are unimaginable based on our present knowledge may appear. With a pump, for example, the contents may be pushed out as soon as we take the tube part. If doing this leads to such talented people joining us and creating new technology, it will drive progress upward in stages.

Ogawa

We need such people to join us in addition to companies and universities.

Kitamori

We really want to create a cycle in which new fresh people who are eager to take on new challenges appear and produce something ingenious.

Ogawa

Such breakthroughs occur through a steady cycle of ideas. If your ideas are logical, they will surely result in breakthroughs. That’s why it’s not good to do things that are strange, illogical, or impossible. The results of breakthroughs are surely logical.

Kitamori

I’ve written about it before. When you do something new, it’s no good to offer ideas just to try to be different. Originality and trying to be different are completely different, and originality should be built up logically.

Ogawa

You’re right. About the linkage. Every idea is based on theories that are built up.

Ogawa

Yes.

Kitamori

In all fields, not only in science and technology but also in art, it is said that changing things, such as music and paintings, in creative ways is a logical jump but that progress will only happen when logical and completely new ideas arise.

Ogawa

Many years ago, when I asked a female Olympic gymnast to write a message, she wrote “the beauty of strength.” The movement of the body becomes beautiful when you give your best performance. This also applies to plants. When they are at their simplest and their performance improves, they have beautiful forms based on the golden rule. Therefore, no matter how well the calculations add up, clumsy equipment performs poorly. Microdevices are simple and beautiful. This is truth. Truth is beautiful. It may sound philosophical, but people who made thorough calculation know it. If the result of calculation looks clumsy, the calculation itself is wrong.

Kitamori

Yes. 7 by 3 comes from prepared slides for microscopes. Originally, I specialized in making new analysis equipment and detectors. I was doing experiments in which light was cast into fluid under a microscope, but there was hardly any space under the microscope because the objective lens was extremely close to the sample. So, I scratched the prepared slides with a glass cutter, dropped the samples there, and covered the slides for measurement. That is the origin of our microdevice.

Ogawa

This is the first time I’ve heard that.

Kitamori

If you use a cover glass like this, it’s hard to change the fluid, so I made an inlet to make it smoother. Then, I wondered what would happen if two fluids were mixed and allowed to undergo a chemical reaction. That’s what led to the present microfluidic device.
So, 7 by 3 originated from the prepared slides I happened to be using at that time, which were about 7 cm long and 3 cm wide. When I said let’s get started at the beginning of this research, my students used glass of various sizes, so we needed to make holders and a variety of other things. It cost a lot and wasn’t sustainable. So, I started to tell them to conduct the research with 7 by 3 as the standard for Kitamori Laboratory. It’s the laboratory standard. It continues to be used today.

Ogawa

It’s standard. That makes sense. You have a good sense for this, as you’re able to have such a universal idea from the beginning. Normally, when ideas don’t take shape, you tend to do things that are complicated. In such cases, you have to give up on something as an expert.

Kitamori

Seven by three is cool, isn’t it?

Ogawa

When I saw a drawing of Dr. Kitamori’s prepared slide, I thought it was universalized . At that time, there was originally a way of grouping equipment that we call a “unit operation”*, and there were about 45 unit operations*. That excludes reactions. If you look at them individually, you can still break each of them down into their “unit functions”*. I thought that if we could make them real unit functions, it would maybe give us about 30 of them.

Kitamori

That’s perfect. Our micro unit operations also number 30. It matches perfectly.

Ogawa

Yes. I felt it instinctively. So when unit operations, of which there are about 45, are turned into actions that can’t be broken down further, it should result in about 30 or so. That’s what I said. Maybe it will be so.

Kitamori

I felt it wasn’t wrong. It was good.

Ogawa

That was only based on my past experience.

Ogawa

It’s what I thought instinctively. So, contrary to expectations, I said to professors of chemical engineering that we won’t keep up with the times unless we reevaluate the present grouping of unit operations to be compatible with AI.

Kitamori

Yes.

Ogawa

From this point of view, I think they can actually be divided into simpler unit functions. If they are combined into one module, it should be possible to create limitless combinations of products by just changing the recipe inside.

Kitamori

If you combine them, I think that’s true.

Ogawa

That’s the easiest in terms of design, maintenance, and operation after all.

Ogawa

They’ll no longer be needed.

Ogawa

In addition to stopping mass production, I’m now suggesting that we change the plant in Niigata into an all-weather plant. Niigata gets a lot of snow. You won’t have to go outside. An all-weather plant makes it possible to carry out production just indoors. If you do that, for example, elderly people can work more, and even physically challenged people can work. In that case, we can recruit anyone who is willing to work.

Ogawa

For example, there is talk about the retirement age being 70 years old. If that’s the case, I think a variety of environments will need to be prepared. In that sense, the microfluidic device is the most promising.

Ogawa

You’re right.

Kitamori

A long time ago, the slide rule was replaced by the calculator. Before that, there were already computers. Now, their use is commonplace, and many of them are in smartphones. When we were students, there were kits to make your own computers.

Ogawa

Yes, there were.

Kitamori

Most of such computers could only do calculations. At that time, almost no one could have imagined the current situation of an information society created with those computers. Now it has become an information industry or an enormous technology industry that may greatly impact the nation’s strength. It’s driven out all kinds of industries, including those that made slide rules. Even abaci have disappeared.
Instead, a far larger industry and society have appeared. So, I feel that a new society can only be created with the idea that advanced technologies will cover the existing technologies, even though the existing technologies are expected to change and the discussion is made to change the existing technologies.

Kitamori

I think traditions should be preserved. The technique to make the beads for abaci should be preserved, but preservation of an industry is a different story.

Ogawa

When I made DAICEL Production Innovation and said that the Aboshi Plant could be operated by 20 people, some people would say, “Then that won’t preserve jobs.” There were also quite a few questions about whether I cared about people. In response, I wanted to say if we hadn’t done that, Aboshi Plant itself would have been moved to China, and there would have been no jobs. But people didn’t see that. They said employment went from 700 people to about 200 people and that with such a reduction in people, the large company only tried saving itself. But in reality, no company thinks like that.
The more novel something is, the more opposition it will face. Though I may look tough, I take a lot of damage from being in opposition. In those moments, what supports me emotionally is not self-interest but my belief that it is surely advantageous for Daicel. I also really keep asking myself whether it can contribute to society.
Simply put, innovation is still important for the industry. However, some people talk about technological innovation as if it is bad. I think that such an idea could stop the limitless development of humanity. You must think that you’re proposing a new business model or work style

Kitamori

The old guard.

Ogawa

I think that in that case, DAICEL Production Innovation wouldn’t have been introduced as it is now. Because it would be the same as other mechanisms for productivity improvement. However, most of the people who have adopted DAICEL Production Innovation consider it is not only for the reduction of costs. I think they adopt DAICEL Production Innovation because it has several different merits. Thus, I believe that only production improvements with benefits in addition to cost reduction will remain.

Ogawa

Yes, people aren’t stupid after all. You can tell if things are fake or genuine somehow. I think this is because fakes tend to ignore your humanity. When I talk with professors working on AI or androids, they say that up to 99.99% of human behavior can be patternized. However, the rest of our behavior arises in a strongly nonlinear manner, and that extends to behavior that can only be performed by humans.
They say they want to find out how far technology can push human capabilities because they want to demonstrate that human capabilities have extremely nonlinear regions. I think they do it because of intellectual curiosity.
Normally, no one would think it easy or lucky if they were told their work was to just press a button without any thought. On the contrary, it would become intolerable if you were told not to think. Pascal once said, “Man is a thinking reed.” Humans want to think after all. When I think about it, I don’t think things would happen in such a strange way. Rather, only people who don’t try things have such discussions.

Kitamori

Yes.

Ogawa

I once got angry with a young man who said to me that he wanted to understand my production innovation, so he asked me to wait until he understood it better. In a sense, it is disrespectful behavior toward his senior. Because it means he will surpass the senior. Instead, he should first do what his seniors are doing. When doing so, are there people there who understand the work of Newton and Einstein? It starts with believing them and using their knowledge. I recommend trying that first. If you try that, you will understand the meaning of knowledge. Some people just say it without doing it. So, the most important thing is to do it yourself. The worst thing is to just say something without doing it.

Kitamori

Yes. It’s best to show how you are doing. It may not be a matter of persuasion. This may also apply to this project. There are people saying many things, but the whole situation changes if they see, try, and appreciate what we do and follow us. I think it’s impossible to move something big through persuasion only unless you are a gifted politician.

Ogawa

Those situations never last long.

Kitamori

We can show concretely how technology changes things, so that works faster than persuasion.

Ogawa

Since we’re a company, we have to show the direction to some degree, but in the course of doing that, it’s actually desirable when some people instinctively find it interesting.

Kitamori

In a sense, that’s the reason why we’re conducting our research in Taiwan. We’re doing it in Taiwan because we can’t do it in Japan.

Kitamori

But it’s OK if we can get feedback. Now, I think so.

Kitamori

Of course. That’s why we chose it. I don’t go to places where I can’t give feedback.

Kitamori

Taiwanese people always ask me about that, and as one would expect, the answer in a word is flexibility and diversity. I’m not saying this in the conventional sense; I mean the structure of the entire society allows people to be flexible.
The same thing applies to diversity. For example, in Japan, we place value on the position of manager of some business division at a leading Japanese company, and we place value on the person because of his manager position in the company.
In Taiwan, people are valued regardless of their company or position, so people market their value and move to the next place to improve their career aggressively. So, when we say we want to carry out a new project like this one, they come to us looking for employment because they have this kind of value.

So, we, IMT Taiwan, were able to secure staff in just two months and were able to complete the present experimental unit eight months after that. Such flexibility, including that of the entire society, the way people think, and various other things, makes Taiwan very attractive to me.

Kitamori

I think what’s interesting is that it is found not in a Western culture but instead in an Asian culture. I have many relationships with Korea and China, and they have things in common with Japan. In Korea, it is important to be in a certain position in a large company like in Japan, and in China, it was like this historically in the Chinese imperial examination system. There is such a hierarchy for officials, and they do place value on the positions in the system. However, within such an Asian culture, Taiwan has an American-style innovation society in a sense.
This may be partly because the country has a short history. To my mind, it’s a great charm of Taiwan.

*Terminology
• Unit operations:
A general term for operations such as flow, heat transfer, distillation, evaporation, absorption, extraction, drying, crystallization, mixing, pulverization, filtration, precipitation, and centrifugal separation related to the physical changes and transmission of substances and energy. The manufacturing processes of the chemical industry consist of combinations of these unit operations and chemical operations.

• Unit functions:
Herein, it refers to individual process functions during manufacturing processes of the chemical industry or other industries, such as distillation and filtration.

(Continued below)

Ogawa

In the Edo period, Japan isolated itself and closed its doors to foreign countries, but a lot of Japanese people migrated overseas before the Edo period.

Kitamori

At that time. They went overseas by ship.

Ogawa

Yes. That period lasted a long time, and during the period of stability in the Edo period (1603–1868), Japanese people wrapped themselves up in suspicion, so a two-sector system was established. It also applied to magistrate’s offices, the Minamimachi and Kitamachi Magistrate’s Offices. Japan entered a mutual surveillance regime. The mental makeup of the Japanese people was substantially molded under such circumstances. By the time the Meiji period (1868–1912) came, the identity of the Japanese was established, and we moved towards democratization based on reflection after World War II. Originally, ideas unique to Japanese people produced a wide range of innovation. I’d like to demonstrate that excellence of Japanese people. I believe Japanese people are capable of doing a lot more, because we’ve done so historically. After all, the roots of the Japanese people are people who migrated from other countries. In that sense, most people came here with an adventurous spirit.

Ogawa

We should look back on our roots like that.

Kitamori

I served as the Dean of the School of Engineering at the University of Tokyo from 2010 to 2012, and in some ways, I had a sense of impending crisis. I thought we absolutely couldn’t stay as we were and had to change. We first introduced Western culture in the Meiji period. For example, they had steam locomotives instead of horse-drawn carriages. Japanese people were upset and began to introduce them in earnest. The gateway to that was the Imperial College of Engineering, one of the predecessors of the School of Engineering at the University of Tokyo. So, the mission of the Imperial College of Engineering was to serve as a window for introducing Western culture.
What was needed at the time was to quickly understand the targets and start by copying them. As the decades passed, the aim eventually shifted to producing better goods at lower costs than Western competitors to achieve economic growth. There were no problems up to then. In the 2000s, Japan became the country with the second highest number of Nobel Prize winners in the 21st century. In terms of originality, Japan had become a world-leading country. Things were good up to that point.
But people had a sense of stagnation and wondered why. Japan is a country that has won so many Nobel Prizes, but how do we make use of that to add value as an industry? Going back to our earlier discussion, there was an enormous gap in how to add value to original technologies, how to get people to use them, and how to create markets in which their value is recognized.
People around the world call that enormous gap “Death Valley” and various other things, but there may be other factors. We discussed what we should do in the School of Engineering and started a project to create a grand design.

Ogawa

That’s interesting.

Kitamori

At that time, we were professional researchers but also complete amateurs in regard to management, so we had to ask people about many things, including corporate management. From that, we learned that Japan is very good at competing to win market share, as we expected, but is very bad at creating new markets from zero with its original technologies. So, first, we wanted to see the kinds of people who are doing this. We wanted to see if venture companies are really where new markets are created in the first place, so we started looking at a lot of different aspects of technological innovation
By doing that, we gradually learned that the important thing is not only your mindset but also the kind of training you get at university. Especially in doctoral programs. Doctoral programs are not institutions that produce specialists. Rather what students should do in doctoral programs is training in which they discover issues on their own and overcome them. Naturally, they will fail repeatedly. They ultimately reach their goal by repeatedly failing and steadily updating their next ideas. Doctoral programs are the places for such training.
In that case, we should consider not only development of technology but also letting people use it. They use it because it has the value I mentioned earlier, and if they think it’s good, it can break barriers and create a market. That was exactly what happened in the case of a DNA sequencer (device for automatically reading the base sequence of DNA). Although the DNA sequencer was created in Japan, a market couldn’t be created for it in Japan. When the American company ABI made one, a huge 2 trillion yen market was created.
We investigated in earnest who accomplished this and how they did it. From that investigation, it became clear that what we were lacking at that moment was just training and human resources, and I wondered if we could do it with Japanese people alone. The population is steadily decreasing, and the number of elementary school children today is only half the number of university students when we were in university. Among them, the number of people who could do it is naturally is only half that of our generation. Since people have become more global and society has not, talented people are increasingly going abroad. Talented people aren’t coming in from abroad either. So, how do we secure human resources who will do it? The future looks bleak.
Our discussions were increasingly about things like this, so we created a grand design for what we should do now to make a course correction. I, the next dean, and the dean after that did it. But a decade later, it unfortunately looks like we are going to get the kind of results we feared.
In this context and returning to this project again, I want to do this project in Taiwan and show Japanese people a better way of doing things, as well as make breakthroughs. This is my biggest motivation now. I feel that Japan won’t change unless we show it how.

Kitamori

Frankly speaking, we meant only the globalization of people when we talked about globalization. Our globalization meant to go abroad to conduct business. But that’s not what it is. Globalization should mean to accept foreigners coming to Japan, and it is inevitable to globalize capacity. This means that the University of Tokyo must be globalized and that Daicel must be globalized. It’s a question of capacity.
It’s just in Japan that people in university offices cannot understand English. No matter what small office you go into in Taiwan, the people there understand English. It’s a capacity problem, not a people problem.
For the past 10 or 15 years, we’ve been running on empty because we’ve only discussed what to do for industries in Japan. Japanese industries will gradually become unable to sustain central and basic research laboratories, and what will be the role of universities then? In that case, universities should take over the central research laboratories of companies. That’s what the dominant tone of the argument has become. It is also the opposite of globalization of organizations, so on the contrary, the tone has become increasingly domestic.
This is being demanded not only by academia, such as universities, but also by industry. The industrial world has shifted more and more in that direction, calling loudly for feedback on research results rather than talking about such issues..

Ogawa

This is off-topic, but I say that the salaries of professors should be increased because Japan itself seems to no longer acknowledge things that are outstanding. That’s why the Nobel Prizes you mentioned earlier are generally referred to as Nobel Prizes in Physics. To put it bluntly, hardly any expenses for experiments are needed for the Nobel Prize in Physics. Because it’s theory. In that sense, it costs a lot more if you want to receive the prize in medicine or chemistry.

Kitamori

Yes, indeed.

Ogawa

Japanese people won Nobel Prizes when there was no money after World War II. Both Dr. Shinichiro Tomonaga and Dr. Yukawa received prizes for theoretical physics. This demonstrates the excellence of Japanese people, but the fact that Japan doesn’t spend much money on research remains unchanged.

Kitamori

That’s true. In Asia, only Japan has produced so many Nobel Prize winners. Taiwan admires Japan for it.

Ogawa

That’s true.

Kitamori

They wonder how in the world this could be.

Ogawa

If that excellence is still present in Japan.

Kitamori

Oh, this is the last chance. So, it’s now or never.

Ogawa

You’re right. That’s why there’s been a significant drop in the skill of today’s engineer, you know. In that sense, Japanese people are inherently diligent and have a kind of hungry spirit, but I think those qualities are almost gone now. When you look overseas, you can see that there is a lot more hungry spirit there. They have ambitions in a good way. It may sound unpleasant to say ambition, but they are ambitious.

Kitamori

When the people from Daicel came to Taiwan, I thought a lot about what I should show them and ultimately decided to show them students. I decided to show them students involved in Formula 1 and robotics research. You must have seen the aggressiveness of the students. They’re incredibly hungry. I wonder where that’s gone in Japan.

Ogawa

I don’t know where it’s gone in Japan. Even if you go to companies overseas, the staff there are equally hungry. When you suggest 3S (sorting, setting in order, and shinning), white-collar workers don’t do them. They say it’s something blue-collar workers do. In fact, 3S is very important for improvement. On the other hand, they’re very hungry for career advancement. At Daicel, we use the term “visual control” instead of 3S. Calling it visual control provides a justification for why it must be conducted by not only blue-collar workers but also white-collar workers.
That kind of hunger needs to be emulated by young people in Japanese companies. From the perspective of university students, I feel that many cannot clearly foresee their dreams developing once entering private companies.In Japan, people talk about the “lost 20 years,” but that’s been so overhyped that I think young people can’t dream even if they get hired by a company. If they don’t feel any meaning there, they also lose sight of the real purpose of studying.

Kitamori

That’s exactly right.

Ogawa

Conversely, I think we businesspeople and seniors should step in more to show our attitudes toward work and talk about our dreams. More interesting dreams.

Ogawa

Yes.

Kitamori

I don’t think so. (Laughter)

Ogawa

At any rate, Dr. Kitamori is a member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences. He’s on the selection side of the Nobel Prize.
Of course, the Nobel Prize is huge as an award, but it’s mainly based on a pure academic evaluation. That’s important in itself, but it’s still important how much social implementation has been done.

Kitamori

Yes. They’re different. Obviously different.

Ogawa

The idea behind this microfluidic device is fantastic, but it’s positioned as a tool for social implementation. So, chemical industrial research isn’t very suitable for the Nobel Prize.

Kitamori

There are far fewer of such inventions than Nobel Prizes. In that sense, there is an honor for originality for us scientists backed by the authority of the Nobel Prize and its history to date, but the standard is different from the value to society. Completely different.

Ogawa

Someday, the Kitamori International Award will be established.
We’ll use the money we make with the microfluidic device to fund it. (Laughter)

Kitamori

Actually, it’ll be the Daicel International Award, but I hope it’ll have such an economic impact.

Ogawa

No, I haven’t.

Kitamori

No, it was calculated by our CEO. (Laughter)

Ogawa

At our company, we calculated that if the microfluidic device is implemented, it will result in a reward of tens of billions of yen . In that sense, Mr. Kitamori and I made shrewd calculations. How much benefit will it add?

Kitamori

I only hope to be able to live well in old age.

Ogawa

Oh, come on! (Laughter)

Ogawa

This microfluidic device is definitely interesting. I now believe this is the most effective method to realize carbon neutrality among the multitude of methods.

Ogawa

It makes sense.

Kitamori

I hope this idea spreads.

Ogawa

The other day, I talked about this with the former president of a chemical company. He also said that he should have done more in this area. In that sense, a thoughtful production engineer thinks this is it.

Ogawa

Yes. For this, I think we will need to fine tune the device and contents some more.

Kitamori

We have still a ton of things to do.

Ogawa

Of course, it is. So, I hope people, including those here, achieve self-fulfillment by making new breakthroughs, and cultivate and want to develop these areas themselves.

Kitamori

To do this, we need human resources. The next generation of human resources.

Ogawa

Yes.

Kitamori

But in Japan, the population in Japan is decreasing, so the problem is how to secure talented people in such a situation. If we do nothing, they will steadily go abroad. People are becoming more global and moving rapidly to places with better conditions, so hollowing-out really does occur.

Ogawa

I really fear that most of all.

Kitamori

Come to think of it, I have another post in Sweden, which has a smaller population than Tokyo but a land area that is 1.2 times that of Japan. They believe that it is only education that can keep the country going. Only education to build a science- and technology-oriented nation. In Swedish academism, they consider how they can secure human resources.
The Nobel Prizes stem from that, so they pay tribute to the creation of knowledge, the addition of value to created knowledge, and other such things. When I received an honorary doctorate from Lund University in Sweden, which I received during a doctorate presentation ceremony, the ceremony was really solemn. It was held in Lund Cathedral. That shows respect for creation, and it’s the parents who make their children yearn for it. It’s their education and wish for their children. Even a village with a population of 100 people needs a transformer substation. This means that it is a nation that has no choice but to train engineers. They do it because of that.

Ogawa

I think Japan should also make the same choice.

Kitamori

Yes.

Ogawa

Japan needs to make that choice because it is a country without natural resources. Because of such a situation, the literacy rate in Japan was very high during the Edo period, though I spoke ill of it before, saying that it was a conservative era. Even ordinary people went to temple schools to study.

Kitamori

Yes. In Japan, the education system up to the end of the Edo period was very progressive. Furthermore, a path to tertiary or higher education was created in society. Primary and ideological education was provided in elementary schools. Then, there was secondary education. The finishing touch was tertiary or higher education. Even in the Meiji period, tertiary high education was great because of the previously mentioned introduction of Western culture.

Ogawa

First, we need to get the microfluidic device working well and get young people increasingly hungry to join in activities aimed at social implementation of the new technology.

Kitamori

Yes.

Ogawa

I want students to achieve self-fulfillment above all. I think it would be good if not only young people but also all the engineers of Japan achieved self-fulfillment while working on new technology. I want to demonstrate it as an example. It will be absolutely groundbreaking, so I think it’s something we should definitely work on.

(End)